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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:45 am 
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If you look at the victories and failures of the civil rights movement and its litigation strategy in the court. I think where it succeeded was to invest formal rights in previously dispossessed people, so that now I would have the right to vote. I would now be able to sit at the lunch counter and order as long as I could pay for it I’d be o.k. But, the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society. To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as its been interpreted and Warren Court interpreted in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can’t do to you. Says what the Federal government can’t do to you, but doesn’t say what the Federal government or State government must do on your behalf, and that hasn’t shifted and one of the, I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendancy to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways we still suffer from that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:33 pm 
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But, the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society. To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical.




It's clear from the context; Obama said the court was NOT radical because it did not venture into the issue of redistribution of wealth, etc -- he's criticizing those who think it was.


Point to where he actually said the Warren Court SHOULD have "ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth" because I don't think that's what he said -- it's clear to me, he's suggesting the reverse, that he would consider it radical if they had ventured into that issue, but because the Court did NOT venture there, it was NOT radical.

Okay, so Obama does NOT consider it 'radical' that the Supreme Court upheld his right to order food in a 'white' restaurant. Do you disagree with that, Loki?


Last edited by HarveyMidnight on Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:52 pm 
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He is saying that he is upset by its lack of radicalism. Most consider the Warren court radical. He doesn't.

It reads to me that he doesn't like that the Constitution won't allow him to do the things he wants to do "to you".

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:57 pm 
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Lester wrote:
He is saying that he is upset by its lack of radicalism. Most consider the Warren court radical. He doesn't.

It reads to me that he doesn't like that the Constitution won't allow him to do the things he wants to do "to you".



WHERE did he say that upset him?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:11 pm 
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The highlighted part at the end lamenting that the Constitution didn't say what government should do for you. Doesn't let him bring about redistibutive change. Ummmm....communism.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:37 pm 
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Quote:
But the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of
wealth and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice
in this society. And to that extent as radical as people tried to characterize
the Warren court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential
constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution
, at least as
it’s been interpreted, and the Warren court interpreted it in the same way that generally
the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. It says what the states can’t do to you, it
says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the
federal government or the state government must do on your behalf.


You say Negative Liberties, I say protection from Tyranny.

Some day the mob will realize that they can vote themselves our stuff and then it will be all over.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:36 pm 
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The highlighted part at the end lamenting that the Constitution didn't say what government should do for you. Doesn't let him bring about redistibutive change. Ummmm....communism.


That is the OPPOSITE of what he is saying. Read the final portion again----

Quote:
...one of the, I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendancy to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways we still suffer from that.




"The civil rights movement became so court focused...there was a tendency to lose track of... activites on the ground" i.e., it is a TRAGEDY-- his word-- that the Civil Rights Community began to expect the Government to step in & fix everything, rather than try to institute changes to help themselves via the private sector. "In some ways we [i]still suffer from that"[/i]--- i.e. the Community still expects Government to step in, and it should NOT.


The advice he's giving is that the Civil rights movement should STOP expecting the Courts to step in & offer up, ahem, 'reparations'-- but instead make their OWN reparations by building a more successful, influential & wealthy Community in the private sector-- to COMPETE in the private sector.

That is the straight Conservative viewpoint, is it not? Less Government intervention, so people can work & achieve their own success, ON THEIR OWN, and then let them keep the wealth, power & influence that comes with their success?


Last edited by HarveyMidnight on Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:40 pm 
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Harvey I heard much more than that clip and Obama goes into saying how while there were hopes that the court would address the redistribution of wealth he believes it's not going to be accomplished by the courts and has to be accomplished elsewhere.

In the interview I heard he's definitely in favor of redistribution of wealth.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:43 pm 
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Yeah.. but a lot of companies wanting to get rich, want to 'redistribute wealth' too.. by having a successful business that puts that wealth in their own pockets.

So long as this is done in the private sector-- in a business model-- you can't say that is socialism.

Socialism would be for him to demand the government 'redistribute our wealth' for us-- in the quote above, he's saying the opposite -- STOP expecting the courts to do it-- do it on the ground.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:49 pm 
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But what he's currently proposing is using the tax system to shift money around to those he feels need it.

That's still socialism no matter what the mechanism he's using. He's planning on using the tax system to essential "get around" it. Plus what he's proposing will most likely, in a repressed economic system like we currently have, drive the economy into a worse condition. Businesses will either raise prices or lay off employees in order to cover the big increase in taxes.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Loki wrote:
Businesses will either raise prices or lay off employees in order to cover the big increase in taxes.


They're gonna do that anyway, regardless of taxes, in order to protect their finances in the face of a 'repressed economic system'.


On the other hand... with 95% of Americans getting a tax CUT, that means more money in the hands of most of the people who actually patronize those business, so the businesses stand a chance to increase their profits.

You really think Joe the Plumber will make 250,000 this year, if no middleclass home-owners can afford to hire him? The poor & the middle-class 'lay people off', too-- they quit paying for services they can't afford.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:33 pm 
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RobotOnTheToilet wrote:

You say Negative Liberties, I say protection from Tyranny.


Potato, potahto-- that's what he meant... the Constitution places limits on the power of government.. "Congress shall make no law... "i.e. it NEGATES the power the government has to wield over us-- Negative Liberties.

Obama was NOT talking about his tax policy in this recording. He was talking about Civil Rights, and his view of the Court's actions. His comments on 'redistribution of wealth' were about the black community moving up the socio-economic ladder & escaping poverty by obtaining wealth. He called it a TRAGEDY that the community was expecting the Court to intervene & make that kind of change for them, rather than getting motivated in the private sector & making that kind of change themselves. It is a very conservative viewpoint-- as civil rights policies go.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:09 pm 
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"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."

"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see. "

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:32 am 
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Harvey raising taxes and increasing spending historically has a negative effect on the economy. Plus Obama is not talking about tax cuts but what he calls "tax credits", which is a term he's using for giving money to those who are actually either paying little of no taxes..essentially giving more money to people who aren't really paying all that much to begin with.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:07 am 
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HarveyMidnight wrote:
Quote:
The highlighted part at the end lamenting that the Constitution didn't say what government should do for you. Doesn't let him bring about redistibutive change. Ummmm....communism.


That is the OPPOSITE of what he is saying. Read the final portion again----

Quote:
...one of the, I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendancy to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways we still suffer from that.




"The civil rights movement became so court focused...there was a tendency to lose track of... activites on the ground" i.e., it is a TRAGEDY-- his word-- that the Civil Rights Community began to expect the Government to step in & fix everything, rather than try to institute changes to help themselves via the private sector. "In some ways we [i]still suffer from that"[/i]--- i.e. the Community still expects Government to step in, and it should NOT.


The advice he's giving is that the Civil rights movement should STOP expecting the Courts to step in & offer up, ahem, 'reparations'-- but instead make their OWN reparations by building a more successful, influential & wealthy Community in the private sector-- to COMPETE in the private sector.

That is the straight Conservative viewpoint, is it not? Less Government intervention, so people can work & achieve their own success, ON THEIR OWN, and then let them keep the wealth, power & influence that comes with their success?



Wow. Gotta disagree Harvey. I don't think anyone I've heard discuss this take a conservative viewpoint from this. He is clearly lamenting that the Constitution specifically limits the power of the government.

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